Refuse to buy a Toyota - Page 3

apolloGT · #31 (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShelbyCobra2007

My opinion? American, no foreign exceptions. We live, work, drive in America, so buy American products. The money, jobs and economy go to these other countries, and we get screwed. I know some may be reliable, but I know more than less foreign car drivers that need major repairs, mainly transmission and engine. They may make more power, but not in the right cars. They are to much trying to appeal to all markets, beeing powerful, fuel efficient, what ever, but they arent out performing in any catagory. I buy American, becuase I live here and know our country needs my help. I will NEVER buy a foreign auto, my money is made in this country and will stay in this country. Just my [u]opinion[u], but maybe more people will hear it. By the way, I wanted McCain to win the election.

haha, I like what you're saying. I don't think it's bad to have a global market, but the point I'm about to make is a big one.

Most foreign car companies have a 3-month or so warranty check up, so they find the problems before you have them. American car companies don't, so things happen when they do.

I know there are a bunch of cases both ways, but my brother's Audi broke down near an import repair shop. The man who helped him get it to a parking lot, the owner of the shop, literally told him, (the owner is Indian) "you're American, you should've bought an American car, they don't break as much." Most people can't believe that, but I really think it's true. My family has had all American cars forever (the Audi was the first foreign one), and none have ever had a major problem.

sccavette · #32 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 12:22 PM

WOW! some interesting post in here and some good points!

Let me give you my position on a few of the items. This is coming from somebody that works in the new car industry and deals with US made vehicles and foreign made vehicles.

1. The "buy only american" idea will NEVER happen. We are a society that wants it all and wants the best at the cheapest price and the foreign car market offers this. If you are a "buy only american" believer then you need to get rid of any and all cell phones you have or use along with the X-box and the Playstation. You will also need to quit posting on the internet, half if not more of your computer system is built with foreign parts. If you have any aftermarket stereo in your car you need to remove it, it is not US made. We want to talk buy american buy american however when it comes down to it we can not and will not buy american because we are not willing to give up the easy way of life, why would a auto be any different.

2. YES, foreign cars ARE better quality, longer lasting, better designed, and have a higher resale value than US made cars. I have been in the auto manufacture quality business for years and I can tell you without any dought the foreign cars ARE better made cars. If you would like sprecific examples I would be more than happy to provide many.

3. The US made cars have improved and is closing the gap between them and the foreign market. This is NOT do to the big 3 wanting to better the cars for their customers, this is because they were forced to do so to be competative with the superior foreign cars. If the foreign car market did not come to the table we would still be driving the crap that was being produced by the big 3 in the late 70's and early 80's

4. The funny part of this debate is that the US cars that everybody is saying are just as good or not better than the foreign cars ARE foreign cars. The platforms that we love today (CTS, G8, GTO, Cobalt, etc) are all cars that are built on Australian or other over seas ventures by GM and just rebumpered and rebadged to pass it as a US made car. Thesee are GM owned companies however they are NOt in the US.

At the end of the day the foreign cars are better and the sales prove it. The modern consumer will buy the best car their budget can afford and with the research that can be made via the internet the majority is buying foreign. If the US cars were in fact better and a better value (including trade value) they would sell more vehicles.

I am sure that the majority of people on here have watched Top Gear and watch Jeremy bash US made cars. Though it seems he hates us americans, please pay attention to what he has to say, there is a lot of truth in the flaws he points out in the US made cars. Chrysler even refused to give them a new Challenger to test because they were concerned it would not fare so well.

I have never owned a foreign car however I have drove about every make and almost every model out there and I also deal with them and their parts daily in my job.

SuperchargedXJ · #33 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 01:31 PM

Very well said, and very true. It's just fact guys. I like a lot of American vehicles, I even own one, and wouldn't hesitate to own others. But what sccavette has said is true. Foreign cars are just better, and the evidence backs it up. That doesn't mean foreign cars are for you, or that you have to like them, but they deserve some respect and recognition for what they are.

apolloGT · #34 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sccavette

4. The funny part of this debate is that the US cars that everybody is saying are just as good or not better than the foreign cars ARE foreign cars. The platforms that we love today (CTS, G8, GTO, Cobalt, etc) are all cars that are built on Australian or other over seas ventures by GM and just rebumpered and rebadged to pass it as a US made car. Thesee are GM owned companies however they are NOt in the US.

At the end of the day the foreign cars are better and the sales prove it. The modern consumer will buy the best car their budget can afford and with the research that can be made via the internet the majority is buying foreign. If the US cars were in fact better and a better value (including trade value) they would sell more vehicles.

I am sure that the majority of people on here have watched Top Gear and watch Jeremy bash US made cars. Though it seems he hates us americans, please pay attention to what he has to say, there is a lot of truth in the flaws he points out in the US made cars. Chrysler even refused to give them a new Challenger to test because they were concerned it would not fare so well.

I have never owned a foreign car however I have drove about every make and almost every model out there and I also deal with them and their parts daily in my job.

I see your point, but those cars you mentioned built on the Zeta platform (I think it's Zeta?)... why are they great? Yeah the platform is nice, but it's the engines that make them superior to competition... that's right.. SUPERIOR (I'd be happy to back that up). They all have some type of LS powered engine or a DI V6! The LS engines are made in Kentucky.. the DI V6s are made in Michigan.

Yes, Japan can make a good interior and put fancy electronics in their cars... but I've never seen a Japanese car with as much spirit as cars like the Mustang, the Camaro, the Corvette.. you know.. the American V8 big boys. Japanese cars just don't have it in them.. and I'm not talking about power.. I'm just talking about almost a 6th sense thing for cars. I'm sure this sounds stupid.. but take it from me. I drove the Lexus IS-F.. a lotta fun, faster than my dad's CTS-V. But, I prefer driving the V. why? It has that soul.. that red, white and blue punch in the face.. you just don't get that sense of pride with other cars.

Honestly, when was the last time Toyota or Honda made an exciting car? (except the S2000 some would argue). 1997? The last year of the supra? People would say the NSX is exciting, but for $80,000, the performance was subpar.

Watch the top gear episode (the whole thing when you have time) with the new CTS-V, ZR1, and Challenger SRT8.. the last line that Jeremy says, speaks for what I'm saying. "Our success though, was not the biggest surprise on this trip. We came here wondering if America finally made a car that might actually work in the civilized world. The answer is no.. they haven't. As you can see from our smiles, they've made 3."

Referring to the Ford Mustang in a different episode, Jeremy said, "Ford Mustang - Greatest car ever? Well, it's changed the world, mobilized a generation, redirected the way we thought about cars, and sounded like God, shouting. So I should say so, yeah."

Maybe foreign cars are better made (meanwhile many are made in alabama under a non-union workforce, which the big 3 should take note of), but in the end, I'll buy the American car for reasons listed above. Yes, I still think most American cars over $25K are better made than their competitors, but even if they weren't, I will always still buy them.. as long as they come with a V8

To me, that's the essence of the American car. Yeah the interior may not be the best, yeah it might not have all the latest gadgets, and maybe it doesn't talk back to you in 4 different languages, but for the money, it'll always outperform the competition.

Last point: all cars sucked in the late 70s and 80s because of the environmental scare... look at today.. what are the most boring cars? Hybrids!

Here's the link to the episode of top gear:

Season 12 Episode 2 » Watch Top Gear

sccavette · #35 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolloGT

I see your point, but those cars you mentioned built on the Zeta platform (I think it's Zeta?)... why are they great? Yeah the platform is nice, but it's the engines that make them superior to competition... that's right.. SUPERIOR (I'd be happy to back that up). They all have some type of LS powered engine or a DI V6! The LS engines are made in Kentucky.. the DI V6s are made in Michigan.
The Zeta platform is the best that GM has at this time. I agree it is not better than some other makes however for GM it is the best they have offered in a long time. I agree the LS is a decent motor however keep in mind it is just a newer version of the old push rod V8 that has been around for 100+ years. I have owned and raced LS engines and they did decent with minimal problems. The earlier versions had some major issues with piston noise and bending push rods however these have been corrected. I also believe the LS platform was first used in the Holden platform before it was placed in the C5. I know the engineer that did the ESC cal on the Ls for the C5, I will ask him to verify. Keep in mind we are talking about people buying cars and it takes more than just a decent motor for the general publis to purchase the car.
Yes, Japan can make a good interior and put fancy electronics in their cars... but I've never seen a Japanese car with as much spirit as cars like the Mustang, the Camaro, the Corvette.. you know.. the American V8 big boys. Japanese cars just don't have it in them.. and I'm not talking about power.. I'm just talking about almost a 6th sense thing for cars. I'm sure this sounds stupid.. but take it from me. I drove the Lexus IS-F.. a lotta fun, faster than my dad's CTS-V. But, I prefer driving the V. why? It has that soul.. that red, white and blue punch in the face.. you just don't get that sense of pride with other cars.
You are talking about driving a car for "fun" and this is not why the majority buys cars. You are basing what car YOU would buy on what the performance of the car is. There is nothing wrong with this and I am sure the majority on this forum would do the same, the problem is this is not the majority that are buying the cars. The automobile is a way to get from point A to point B and the majority of people who buy a car is buying for just transportation. The majority want good gas mileage, safety, quiet, and all the electronic gadgets they can get for their money. They want all this and they want it to have a nice fit and finish along with good reliability and resale. If you were GM this is the market that you try and build the car that people want because this is where the majority of the sales are. Japan understands this and this is the reason the interiors are nicer in their cars and they are selling more of them.

Honestly, when was the last time Toyota or Honda made an exciting car? (except the S2000 some would argue). 1997? The last year of the supra? People would say the NSX is exciting, but for $80,000, the performance was subpar.
Again this is a small marker and Toyota and Honda realize this. Why waist time and money on a venture you know you will get little return.

Watch the top gear episode (the whole thing when you have time) with the new CTS-V, ZR1, and Challenger SRT8.. the last line that Jeremy says, speaks for what I'm saying. "Our success though, was not the biggest surprise on this trip. We came here wondering if America finally made a car that might actually work in the civilized world. The answer is no.. they haven't. As you can see from our smiles, they've made 3."
This just backs up my statement that the big 3 has started producing better cars. I ask again, do you think these cars would be as good as they are if the foreign competition was not here to force them up their game?

Referring to the Ford Mustang in a different episode, Jeremy said, "Ford Mustang - Greatest car ever? Well, it's changed the world, mobilized a generation, redirected the way we thought about cars, and sounded like God, shouting. So I should say so, yeah."
The mustang has always been a big seller for ford for many reasons. Keep in mind the V6 is the biggest seller and women are the majority of the buyers. The new mustang is a good car at a good price.

Maybe foreign cars are better made (meanwhile many are made in alabama under a non-union workforce, which the big 3 should take note of), but in the end, I'll buy the American car for reasons listed above. Yes, I still think most American cars over $25K are better made than their competitors, but even if they weren't, I will always still buy them.. as long as they come with a V8

To me, that's the essence of the American car. Yeah the interior may not be the best, yeah it might not have all the latest gadgets, and maybe it doesn't talk back to you in 4 different languages, but for the money, it'll always outperform the competition.

Where the car is built has little input on how good the car is. The car is engineered with better parts, tighter tolerances, etc, etc, by the foreign company. The car can be assembled anywhere with the assembly process the foreign car companies have designed and the big 3 is trying to copy. The employees that assemble the foreign cars are held responsible for allowing a car down the assembly line with any defect, this is not the case in a UAW plant. The employees that build these cars know their jobs depend on them building a good product and make sure they do just that.

Last point: all cars sucked in the late 70s and 80s because of the environmental scare... look at today.. what are the most boring cars? Hybrids!

The gas shortage that made the cars slugs in the 70's and 80's had 0 impact on build quality. Even the cars that were capable of good gas mileage were rusting away sitting on the dealer showrooms. The cars had 0 quality control and were built with the cheapest materials and parts available. This was not because of the gas shortage, this was because they had no competition and they knew it. They knew people would buy the cars no mater what they produced, they had no choice but to do so. This has changed and now they are forced to make a better car at a decent price.
Here's the link to the episode of top gear:

Season 12 Episode 2 » Watch Top Gear

Keep in mind I am NOT bashing US made cars, I am just telling you the way is and this is why the big 3 are in the position they are in today. I deal with quality issues for US and foreign cars in my job. You would be amazed at some of the things I have seen built at a car plant just to get cars out the door. You would also be amazed at the amout of issues that are built into a car that they know are there and have determined it is just cheaper to build the car and fix it at the dealers IF it comes back for the problem. These are problems that were not a safety issue so they do not have to issue a recall, just build the car and deal with it later at the dealer. In the meantime they will over stock the warehouse with the parts to fix the problem knowing they are going to see it at the dealer.

superz28 · #36 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolloGT

I see your point, but those cars you mentioned built on the Zeta platform (I think it's Zeta?)... why are they great? Yeah the platform is nice, but it's the engines that make them superior to competition... that's right.. SUPERIOR (I'd be happy to back that up). They all have some type of LS powered engine or a DI V6! The LS engines are made in Kentucky.. the DI V6s are made in Michigan.

Yes, Japan can make a good interior and put fancy electronics in their cars... but I've never seen a Japanese car with as much spirit as cars like the Mustang, the Camaro, the Corvette.. you know.. the American V8 big boys. Japanese cars just don't have it in them.. and I'm not talking about power.. I'm just talking about almost a 6th sense thing for cars. I'm sure this sounds stupid.. but take it from me. I drove the Lexus IS-F.. a lotta fun, faster than my dad's CTS-V. But, I prefer driving the V. why? It has that soul.. that red, white and blue punch in the face.. you just don't get that sense of pride with other cars.

Honestly, when was the last time Toyota or Honda made an exciting car? (except the S2000 some would argue). 1997? The last year of the supra? People would say the NSX is exciting, but for $80,000, the performance was subpar.

Watch the top gear episode (the whole thing when you have time) with the new CTS-V, ZR1, and Challenger SRT8.. the last line that Jeremy says, speaks for what I'm saying. "Our success though, was not the biggest surprise on this trip. We came here wondering if America finally made a car that might actually work in the civilized world. The answer is no.. they haven't. As you can see from our smiles, they've made 3."

Referring to the Ford Mustang in a different episode, Jeremy said, "Ford Mustang - Greatest car ever? Well, it's changed the world, mobilized a generation, redirected the way we thought about cars, and sounded like God, shouting. So I should say so, yeah."

Maybe foreign cars are better made (meanwhile many are made in alabama under a non-union workforce, which the big 3 should take note of), but in the end, I'll buy the American car for reasons listed above. Yes, I still think most American cars over $25K are better made than their competitors, but even if they weren't, I will always still buy them.. as long as they come with a V8

To me, that's the essence of the American car. Yeah the interior may not be the best, yeah it might not have all the latest gadgets, and maybe it doesn't talk back to you in 4 different languages, but for the money, it'll always outperform the competition.

Last point: all cars sucked in the late 70s and 80s because of the environmental scare... look at today.. what are the most boring cars? Hybrids!

Here's the link to the episode of top gear:

Season 12 Episode 2 » Watch Top Gear

BYAHHHH!!!!!!

go1221 · #37 (**permalink**) 12-28-2008, 11:25 AM

well, besides their great econ-o-cars, Toyota is behind the ever so great supra, although now they have no fun sports cars, the supra, with proper mods, could beat many Chrysler and dodges, they easily crank out up to 1000whp. i have a Toyota corrola, '93 and it gets 40mpg, right now i don;t see a reason not to like Toyotas.

Train · #38 (**permalink**) 11-30-2009, 12:43 AM

I'm really neutral about these kinds of things. As long as it's a good car...

And mind you, Toyota's coming out with this: